Though I fear too many still remain unacquainted with them, Pale Divine truly compete with the best that doom metal has to offer. Their third CD just hit stores (the review is featured elsewhere on the site), and Greg, John, and Darin were nice enough to grant me an interview. And I must say, it’s one of the more interesting ones I’ve had the pleasure to do. Thanks to these very literate and thoughtful guys for taking the time. Now get out there and pick up their new CD ASAP! You won't be disappointed.
You guys are based in
Greg Diener (vocals, guitar): Yes, we hail from the Keystone state. A nice place to live but unfortunately, not a "Keystone" in the metal scene. There are a lot of kick ass bands around, but not enough to draw attention to the area. Especially in the Metal genre.
John Gaffney (bass): Not much of a scene as far as doom bands go.
Darin McCloskey (drums): Not much at all going on in PA. Typically, we have to travel to nearby states such as
Big cities are less separated in the eastern
GD: I guess you could say that. There is a certain "clique" of bands in the Philly area that would definitely be described as "Philly Bands." As for us, we are often grouped in with the "
What’s the origin of the band’s name?
GD: For me, the origin was when Darin came to practice and said he wanted to use it. In my eyes, it seemed to match the music. Open for interpretation.
DM: The name actually came to me after listening to the song “Opaque Divinity” by Solitude Aeturnus. I just sort of condensed it to Pale Divine and voila! It’s a bleak yet powerful name and seemed to fit well with our music, so it stuck. Little did I know at the time there was another band from St. Louis with the same name, though they were more of an indie/alternative band. Some of their fans sent us a few nasty e-mails and such but that was years ago. That band is defunct and has been for several years.
How would you define “true” or “traditional” doom metal? What makes your music fall in to this category?
GD: I believe that music is much more than sound. It is a feeling that creates sound. In return, that sound creates and projects deeper feeling. Feeling to me is what classifies music. In the 70's, bands like Jethro Tull and Deep Purple were labeled as metal, not because of raunchy guitars or screaming vocals, but because of the heavy feeling emitted by their music. By today’s standards, these bands are almost easy listening. In my eyes, they remain among the heaviest bands of all-time. It is in that frame of mind that I categorize "True Doom" as any music that truly makes you believe the end is near. Not necessarily the end of the world or the "Apocalypse." But the end of comfort, the end of normality. The end of life as it is known today. I don't know if we accomplish this or not, but the music is how I feel. Everything won't be ok!
JG: "Traditional doom" stays true to the template laid down by the founding fathers Candlemass, Trouble, Saint Vitus, and others. Clean vocals, slow heavy riffs. Pale Divine draws inspiration from all these early fathers of doom.
DM: “Traditional doom” relies more on the old school heavy metal values. There will always be a large portion of early Sabbath, with a smidgeon of Priest and a generous helping of Iron Maiden along with the other bands that John just mentioned. There’s no Sludge or Gothic to be found in “traditional doom” metal. It is doom METAL in its purest form.
Are you a Christian band? There were some lines on Eternity Revealed like “Now they know / He will rise again / Though they tried in vain the strike him down.” I assumed that was referring to Jesus. The front cover is also dominated by a cross.
GD: No, I would not say we are a Christian band. Our intent is not to promote or condemn Christianity or any religion. We merely weigh the options. Right and wrong, good and evil. Although we may have songs that are spiritual in nature, we also have songs that question the whole idea of organized religion. Fascinating subject matter, regardless of your beliefs.
DM: Basically, the concept behind the lyrics in Eternity Revealed was more or less a study into the various aspects of human spirituality - not necessarily “Christianity” exclusively. Obviously, Christianity is the most prominent component of spiritual subject matter and we probably focused on that more liberally so it’s easy to see where the confusion came in. It’s not a problem. There’s certainly worse things to be accused of but for the record we’re not a Christian band. As Greg said though, it is a fascinating subject and one that I think most people can relate to.
I might be wrong about this, but it seems like doom metal has more than a normal amount of respected Christian bands (for example Trouble or Place of Skulls). Is there a reason that doom metal would attract Christians more than, say, death metal?
GD: I suppose, despite the dark nature of "Doom" metal, bands like Trouble and Place of Skulls often convey a message of hope. Not to mention, people need something to believe when they can see the end coming.
JG: Doom tends to be a style of music that is very reflective and emotional often dealing with spiritual subjects like life, death, mortality, and evil and good. Religion often focuses on these subjects so I think that is why doom and religion sometimes cross paths.
DM: Exactly, doom metal is powerful music so it lends itself to powerful subject matter. Topics of self awareness, introspection, etc., usually go hand and hand with spiritual concepts.
You make it clear that Black Sabbath is one of your main influences (of course). But do you prefer the Ozzy version of Sabbath or the Dio version? Mob Rules, for instance, was one of the first metal albums I ever owned, and I still cherish it even today.
GD: ALL SABBATH RULES!!!! Are you trying to make my head explode or something?
JG: I prefer them both. Dio era is different than the Ozzy era but in my opinion neither is better or worse than the other.
DM: It’s almost like two separate bands really. I love the Ozzy era Sabbath but the Dio era Sabbath is just more epic and powerful. It’s really in a class by itself. To me though, Black Sabbath is Tony Iommi. I think Tony’s riffs are the most recognizable aspect of the band so really anything that Tony does is Black Sabbath in my opinion, regardless of who’s singing. Certainly the various singers have helped shape the sound of the band but the one thing that always shines through are those massive riffs! I’m also a big Tony Martin fan . . . just wanted to add that . . . hehe.
You guys also cite Venom, Slayer, Mercyful Fate, and King Diamond as influences. Were you ever troubled by the overt Satanism in these bands? For instance, when I first saw their albums in the mid-eighties, I know they scared the shit out of me.
GD: I never took them seriously. The music was what got my attention, not the gimmick. Whether or not these bands truly worship the Devil or not I don't know, nor do I care. Their sounds are captivating, and I would be a lesser musician if I had been scared away by their image.
JG: It never bothered me. I viewed it like a comic book or a movie. Something based in fiction.
DM: Mercyful Fate is one of the greatest bands of all time, right up there with Black Sabbath as far as I’m concerned.
Is there any new music that you guys are really in to right now? Did you hear Sahg’s recent CD?
DM: Yeah, I’ve heard it. It’s pretty cool. It would’ve been cooler if it had come out before Spiritual Beggars or Terra Firma (who I think it basically emulates), but it’s still pretty impressive from a bunch of guys who were playing Black Metal just a few months earlier. Lately, I’ve been into The Lord Weird Slough Feg and Crescent Shield as well as all the stuff I’ve been listening to for years, i.e. Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Saxon, Judas Priest, and Iron Maiden. That stuff just never gets old for me. I still enjoy it just as much as the day I first heard it. Timeless masterpieces!
JG: I really enjoy a new band from Sweden called Astrakaan. Very Melodic doom. I enjoy their use of melody.
On to Cemetery Earth. When was it released? I see it’s on a Swedish label this time (I Hate Records). Does working with people so far away present any special difficulties?
GD: Cemetery Earth was released April 23rd, so it's still pretty fresh. Signing with an overseas label has not presented us with any problems yet. The internet makes everything much easier.
This being your third full-length release, was the experience any different in the studio for this one? Were there any previous mistakes that you’ve learned from this time around?
GD: Each time we record it gets a little smoother. Thunder Perfect Mind was a much looser album in nature, not to mention we initially recorded the basic tracks with no bass player. Jim joined us just before I was going to lay down the bass tracks myself (a good thing). We started in the studio on Eternity Revealed early, before we had everything ironed out with our arrangements. Therefore it took a little longer, almost an eternity. Not to say that has anything to do with the album title. Through our journey, we discovered the joy, and comfort of working with Chris Koslavski. Which made it a no brainer when it came time to decide where to record Cemetery Earth. Provided he was willing to put up with us again. We entered the studio well rehearsed and everything went very smoothly. The rest is history. Chris did a great job.
JG: We wanted it to have a bit more breathing space between the instruments in the mix. I personally wanted more bass and drums in the mix for this disc.
DM: I just wanted it to sound cleaner and more audible than our previous releases.
Was there any different approach to making the new CD? Cemetery Earth seems a lot darker to me than Eternity Revealed. Were you guys in a different place mentally for this one?
GD: Of course. Nobody goes through life without change. This is a different era for us. We have a new bass player with a lot to contribute, and now post Cemetery Earth, we also have added a very talented 2nd guitarist (John Klien). We have set course on a new path, without being uprooted from the style and feel that is Pale Divine. To continue without progression would be a pointless effort. Not to mention very boring.
What would you say are the differences between your three CDs? Has your sound developed in any specific ways? For instance, I was thinking about buying your first CD (Thunder Perfect Mind), but how would you say it compares to the brand new one?
GD: I like to think of each one of our releases as its own entity. Thunder Perfect Mind is very jam oriented, more psychedelic, and not quite so dark. Despite a weak production, I still believe it to be a strong album. Eternity Revealed is much darker with a better production. Still very jam oriented, but less psychedelic. As for Cemetery Earth, the best production that we have had to date. We took a straight forward metal approach on this one, more structured. I'm proud of all three.
DM: All three show a progression from where we started to where we are now, and I think that progression flows quite naturally. There wasn’t any shift in style or anything real profound with regard to “becoming more metal” or whatever as some people in the press have stated. We just felt we went as far as we could with what we had accomplished on the two previous releases and we wanted to explore other avenues. But again, I think it all fits together logically.
The new album is dedicated to Larry Dean Stout II. He was a former bassist for Pale Divine, right?
GD: Yes, he never recorded with us, but was our live bassist from spring of 2001 to fall of 2002. He unfortunately died in an automobile accident in spring of 2005 while we were overseas for the Doom Shall Rise festival. Our thoughts go out to his friends and family. He was a good man and will be missed.
The lyrics in your songs tend to be very dark but also very cryptic. What main sources of inspiration do you draw on for your songs? Are there certain recurring themes to your lyrics?
JG: For my lyrics, I draw inspiration from everyday life and then wrap them in symbolism. I don't like being really obvious. "Eyes of Destiny" was inspired by a movie I saw about Iceland and a race of gnomes that they call "The Hidden Ones." They believe the gnomes exist unseen to the human eye amongst the rocks and that these hidden people hold keys to their future.
DM: Generally, on the previous two releases I more or less let the tone of the music dictate the subject matter. Some of the heavy riffs that Greg came up with inspired me to write lyrics ranging from “Judas Wheel” which deal with the topic betrayal and deception to “Amplified” which is basically an ode to “sonic travel” or the journey one might take when they close their eyes and let the sound of the music overtake their thoughts for a while. So sometimes the subject matter can be really bleak and other times it can really celebrate the enjoyment of life. It all depends on what the music inspires, I suppose. With Eternity, I became fascinated with the topic of human spirituality and the reliance that most of us have in some sort of an “afterlife” so I decided to focus on that for a while. I think the dark brooding nature of the music on Eternity lent itself quite well to that sort of subject matter.
Who or what is “the conqueror worm”? (By the way, great riff in that song!)
DM: “The Conqueror Worm” is a poem by Edgar Allen Poe that’s been a personal favorite of mine since I was in grade school. In the poem, Poe gathers an audience before a stage where actors carry on in various scenes of comedy and tragedy and get so wrapped into the various scenarios that they’re performing that they become oblivious to one another. Finally after all this drama and carrying on, a huge worm comes out onto the stage and just devours all the actors in a violent bloodbath. The irony is that the worm is actually the hero. Haha, it’s kinda bleak but the purpose was to put things into perspective that no matter how wrapped up we become with our lives and all the situations that come along that take so much of our time and effort to sort out, in the end we’re all going to die and none of that stuff really matters in the end. The worm is the physical manifestation of death and as we all know . . . death conquers all.
What’s the source of the quote at the end of “Shadows of Death”?
DM: H.P. Lovecraft right there. The passage is taken from The Necronomicon as spoken by the “Mad Arab” Abd al-Azrad. The quote seemed to fit in well with the theme of the song and I wanted to throw in a nod to Lovecraft since he and Poe are two of my favorites and the tone of the lyrics in “Shadows of Death” have kind of a “Lovecraftian” vibe to them.
You guys have a new guitarist now, right? I know you are just releasing a new album, but are you anxious to get back in the studio and test the creative waters with a second lead guitarist? Seems like there’d be some exciting possibilities there for your music.
GD: We alredy have a couple of ideas floating around, and are more excited than ever with the potential for what might come next.
JG: I'm looking forward to having some songs with Maiden/Priest style harmony guitars in them. This should add a different feel to Pale Divine.
Any possibility of a national tour in the near future? If so, who with? Are you going to be heading overseas?
GD: No definite plans yet, but the wheels are turning.
JG: Hopefully we will be able to get out on the road for the new CD. No plans in concrete at the moment.
DM: At the very least we plan on playing as many shows as we can to support Cemetery Earth and perform many of these songs live. We never refuse an opportunity to tour but now with new members in the band we’ll have to wait and see what their situations will permit.
Well, that’s about it from this end. Congratulations on the new CD. I think it’s great! And I wish you guys lots of success in the future. I hope more people hear about you and check out your stuff.
GD: Thank you for your interest, and all of your efforts to promote the scene. Doom on.
JG: Thank you for your questions.
DM: Thanks a lot, Jason, for the interview. It was a pleasure!